Porsche Survival

[Ghostrider 310]

FYI, in my Porsche warranty Porsche actually states the warranty does not cover "acts of god", they actually have the brass money balls to use that exact verbiage. When I start my own business I'd like similar wiggle room to thwart any bad press or unhappy customers..Can you imagine, hey Jimmy, when we cracked the crankcase we discovered the engine malfunction was an act of god, sorry but now you owe us 20K...

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by pothole

Sorry, we keep going back and forth because the numbers just don't support your position that the 991 is overweight. Even if it is 3200 pounds minimum, that's less than 10 per cent heavier than the 964 in 1989.

Having read a few of your posts, I know on most matters regards sports cars and Porsche we have very similar opinions. But on this one, you've been smoking something. "Somewhat consistently heavier with every generation"? What does than mean?

Fact: the 996 was lighter than the 993.
Fact: Porsche claims the 991 is lighter than the 997.

The weight of the 991 is something it should be praised for, not criticised. The size and other aspects, are another matter.

And I agree, I'd love to see them making a smaller sports car. Something not too much over 1,000kg with a naturally aspirated flat six would be my preference. Not going to happen, obviously.

The 993 and 964 are heavy cars too. Arguing that the 991 is lighter than the 964 doesn't do anything for me. By modern standards, the 996 was a lightweight. Your point, as I understand it, is that for it's size, the 991 is light, I say it's too big and heavy for the car it should be, not the car it is. Fat. It doesn't appeal to me. I will say the same of the 987 and probably 981.

Clearly Porsche is trying to mitigate weight while increasing size and features. My point is, the size and features are objectionable.

Check out the weight of the 4-cylinder Mazda6. It's lighter than the 991. It's a much larger, all steel car. I understand why, save your bandwidth. My point is, if Porsche's priorities lie where they are, the car's don't appeal to me.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

FYI, in my Porsche warranty Porsche actually states the warranty does not cover "acts of god", they actually have the brass money balls to use that exact verbiage. When I start my own business I'd like similar wiggle room to thwart any bad press or unhappy customers..Can you imagine, hey Jimmy, when we cracked the crankcase we discovered the engine malfunction was an act of god, sorry but now you owe us 20K...

That arrogant attitude is another good reason for them to loose once loyal customers.

[Ghostrider 310]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

That arrogant attitude is another good reason for them to loose once loyal customers.

They better be praying that Korea doesn't aim at a "Substitute". The first car company that puts out something that can run with the new P cars and treats everyone who loves the vehicle as part of a loyal family, might just start said family. I don't know why Ford doesn't make a GT almost 40 instead of that bloated stang. I feel blessed to have the lightest production car the P car boys have made in the past couple years.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

They better be praying that Korea doesn't aim at a "Substitute". The first car company that puts out something that can run with the new P cars and treats everyone who loves the vehicle as part of a loyal family, might just start said family. I don't know why Ford doesn't make a GT almost 40 instead of that bloated stang. I feel blessed to have the lightest production car the P car boys have made in the past couple years.

I was lucky enough to see a couple of GTs at Griot's Garage at the beginning of the month. What an awesome looking car! Unfortunately, it's no light weight either.

[pothole]

If there was a market for light weight sports cars, Porsche and others would serve it. Given how successful Porsche has been since the introduction of the 996 (at least the car building side of Porsche, if not the speculative, pseudo financial services aspect), you'd have to say in commercial terms they know exactly what they are doing.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the GT-86/BRZ. Even if it succeeds, I doubt we'll see a wider trend of back to basics, light weight sports cars.

Personally, I think the whole notion of driving on public roads for pleasure is dying going on dead as a remotely mainstream activity.

P.S. @blue2000s my main objection to your posts here was the claim that 911s keep on getting heavier. They really don't.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by pothole

If there was a market for light weight sports cars, Porsche and others would serve it. Given how successful Porsche has been since the introduction of the 996 (at least the car building side of Porsche, if not the speculative, pseudo financial services aspect), you'd have to say in commercial terms they know exactly what they are doing.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the GT-86/BRZ. Even if it succeeds, I doubt we'll see a wider trend of back to basics, light weight sports cars.

Personally, I think the whole notion of driving on public roads for pleasure is dying going on dead as a remotely mainstream activity.

P.S. @blue2000s my main objection to your posts here was the claim that 911s keep on getting heavier. They really don't.

If what you're saying were true, the Miata wouldn't be the best selling sports car of all time. Porsche may choose to play in a different segment, but it doesn't mean the small sports car segment is dead.

Porsches do keep getting heavier. There was a blip when the 993 went to the 996 because it's lighter to cool an engine with water than with metal fins. otherwise each successive generation has gotten heavier. The 991 may be marginally lighter than the 997, by less than 100 pounds, granted.

Attached are two plots of the curb weight of various 911 models through the years, GTs, Specials, Carreras, Cabrios, ect. Look at the general trend from 1980 on, then look at the water cooled cars, still the same trend, albeit flattened a little.

from here:
Porche Curb Weight

[pothole]

The heaviest, tartiest, nastiest 911s get more kit year after year, and do indeed get ever heavier.

But despite your ever more nuanced efforts, the fact is that the core Carrera 2 model has barely gotten heavier since 1989. Sure, add a glass roof, double-clutch box, blah blah blah, it's going to add up. Honestly, I could care less what the chestwig chariot versions weigh, so long as the core Carreras aren't getting fat. Which they demonstrably are not.

But any remotely sane analysis of the new 991 would conclude two things re the weight:

1. It's not the 991's problem
2. Porsche has done a pretty spectacular job keeping the weight down

Try comparing the weight of a basic E30 3 Series to the latest F30. The latter is over 500lb heavier. Now that is weight gain.

[pothole]

Oh and re the Miata, I'd say it wasn't popular because it was light. It was popular because it was affordable.

Anyway, as I said above, I see driving for pleasure as dying as a mainstream hobby.

[blue2000s]

I think what we're down to now is a matter of perspective. I'm going to end by respectfully disagreeing.

[Ghostrider 310]

I'll end by saying there is a market for light sports cars Pothole, Spyders are selling so fast I missed three! Lotus has built a entire following on this principle, although it should be noted the Cayman R still handed the Evora a plate of it's own ass and costs much less.

[pothole]

Lotus has basically never been profitable selling Elise based cars. Kind of amazing, but apparently true. It's now in the process of dumping its light weight strategy in favour of a range of significantly heavier, higher specced cars. A total travesty if you ask me, but perhaps commercially necessary?

Spyder hasn't been that huge a commercial success this side of the pond. For a long while after production ended, there were a bunch of them knocking around UK dealers being offered below list.

How good the Cayman R is, is irrelevant to what the market demands. I don't think the Cayman R was a huge success, either. Brilliant car, but most people with the necessary funds aren't full-on enthusiasts.

As I keep saying, my preference is for light weight, simple sports cars with manual boxes, minimal driver aids, natural aspiration etc. But I'm not remotely convinced there's a large consumer demand for light weight sports cars and that's why so few are made.

I know very clearly what I like, but I'll give Porsche credit for knowing better what the market wants.

[fivepointnine]

it comes down to modern demographics, the current driving generation is more impressed by the latest Iphone than a nice car. They could care less about going for a nice Sunday afternoon drive down a windy road in the mountains, they would rather be playing video games.

[fivepointnine]

Originally Posted by pothole

Lotus has basically never been profitable selling Elise based cars. Kind of amazing, but apparently true. It's now in the process of dumping its light weight strategy in favour of a range of significantly heavier, higher specced cars. A total travesty if you ask me, but perhaps commercially necessary?

Spyder hasn't been that huge a commercial success this side of the pond. For a long while after production ended, there were a bunch of them knocking around UK dealers being offered below list.

How good the Cayman R is, is irrelevant to what the market demands. I don't think the Cayman R was a huge success, either. Brilliant car, but most people with the necessary funds aren't full-on enthusiasts.

As I keep saying, my preference is for light weight, simple sports cars with manual boxes, minimal driver aids, natural aspiration etc. But I'm not remotely convinced there's a large consumer demand for light weight sports cars and that's why so few are made.

I know very clearly what I like, but I'll give Porsche credit for knowing better what the market wants.

the new Toyota/Subraru is a step in the right direction, but it has glaring problems I cannot overlook.
1-not near enough power compared to most cars on the road today
2-not enough rubber on the road.....215 width tires? really?
3-price-approching the price of a base WRX, which is a MUCH faster, equally as well handling car

[Ghostrider 310]

If you desire a naturally aspirated anything it's going to have to be retro, everything seems to be going the other way to meet cafe standards. Hey my dad's surgeon is trying to sell a 12 cyl Jag....

[pothole]

Originally Posted by fivepointnine

it comes down to modern demographics, the current driving generation is more impressed by the latest Iphone than a nice car. They could care less about going for a nice Sunday afternoon drive down a windy road in the mountains, they would rather be playing video games.

It's certainly true that proportionally fewer young people today have driver's licences (in Europe and the US) than they did 20 or even 10 years. And indeed, many of them are more interested in the latest smartphone launch / review than reading about new sports cars.

All that is indeed part of the overall picture, that also includes environmental and economic pressures, that has me doubting the overall commercial viability of sports cars these days. Especially, small, affordable, lightweight sports cars that serious driving enthusiasts would enjoy.

Instead (in Europe, anyway), sports cars will be ****************heaps like DS3 Racings or MINI Coopers. Not sports cars at all, in other words, but that's the sort of car people sill queue up to buy. So it goes.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by fivepointnine

the new Toyota/Subraru is a step in the right direction, but it has glaring problems I cannot overlook.
1-not near enough power compared to most cars on the road today
2-not enough rubber on the road.....215 width tires? really?
3-price-approching the price of a base WRX, which is a MUCH faster, equally as well handling car

These may be problems in terms of if being a commercial success.

But for me the numbers look great apart from the price. I am so tired of cars with massive tyres and huge grip. Much more fun to have thinner tyres and a chassis that you can really play with. More grip isn't automatically better for driving enjoyment.

In fact, too much grip is probably my only real complaint about Boxsters and Caymans (well, apart from the grenading engines).

[Ghostrider 310]

I'll take the grip, it's the "like it's on rails in a corner" feeling about driving Porsche cars that I find addictive. Don't forget modern cars all have grip and capability compared to the type of cars you are talking about and they cut you zero slack on the roads. When I was driving the Fiat I had to push it pretty hard to keep people in traffic happy, off ramps people would be right on you like you were not driving a forty year old machine with skinny tires and less grip.

[pothole]

You can have that on-rails feeling with lower outright grip levels. If you put 225 tyres on a Boxster, you've still have the on-rails feeling, but you'd be able to play with the rear end more readily.

Regards keeping up with traffic in the US, gimme a break. The traffic crawls. You could still annihilate 99% of other cars and get arrested for driving massively over the speed limits if you stuck 155-section boots on a Boxster.

[Ghostrider 310]

[QUOTE=pothole;280537]You can have that on-rails feeling with lower outright grip levels. If you put 225 tyres on a Boxster, you've still have the on-rails feeling, but you'd be able to play with the rear end more readily.

Regards keeping up with traffic in the US, gimme a break. The traffic crawls. You could still annihilate 99% of other cars and get arrested for driving massively over the speed limits if you stuck 155-section boots on a Boxster.[/QUOTE]

Yeah well in a 1971 Fiat spyder you have to push it pretty hard, as for traffic I don't live near the big city, in good weather people fly around here. I don't have the desire to do the Tokyo drift, I'll keep the grip and you can have the loose rear.