Aos

[The Radium King]

an interesting note regarding aos. i was reading an online diy install of a tpc turbo kit on a boxster. one of the issues with forced induction is that the high pressure on the intake doesn't allow the aos to vent to the intake plenum. what does tpc do? they plumb the aos to underneath the car and put a little breather filter on the end of the hose. no catch tank. on an application designed for the street. no hydrolock or blue smoke with a setup like that.

anyone run a tpc kit, tracked behind someone with a tpc kit, or has a similar 'vent to ground' approach on their aos? any james bond oil slicks on the track?

[JFP in PA]

What they have done is come up with a cheap and crappy way to slap a 1955 vintage Band-Aid on a problem they cause. I also know of no sanctioning body that is going to allow that nonsense on their track, it is a recipe for an oil slick.

The M96/97 engines are all low ring tension design; without and AOS to provide crankcase vacuum/evacuation, ring seal will be poor and oil consumption will soar, as will fuel dilution of the oil. This is a bad idea…………..

[The Radium King]

here's the page (about halfway down):

TPC Racing ATP:2 turbo kit DIY Install - Page 2 - 6speedonline.com Forums

does the aos need vacuum or just a lower pressure than in the crankcase (ie, ambient, but vented to a catch can)? i thought connection to the intake plenum was not for vacuum but to recycle any 'oily discharge' for emmissions reasons.

[The Radium King]

been doing some more searching on tpc installs. i note that, whenever tpc posts a build log, they always fail to say anything about the aos component. it's only when a private guy logs his install that it shows up. and the aos thing that i note in my previous post isn't a hack, as tpc provides a specially formed silicone hose for the purpose; this is how they designed it.

6speed is a bit of a sleazy site, and tpc is better than the soviets at propoganda and image control; i bet the pictures get removed asap.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

here's the page (about halfway down):

TPC Racing ATP:2 turbo kit DIY Install - Page 2 - 6speedonline.com Forums

does the aos need vacuum or just a lower pressure than in the crankcase (ie, ambient, but vented to a catch can)? i thought connection to the intake plenum was not for vacuum but to recycle any 'oily discharge' for emmissions reasons.

The manifold provides vacuum to lower the crankcase pressure, which it does via the AOS unit.

[The Radium King]

i understand. what i am wondering is is whether the crankcase needs vacuum or atmospheric pressure.

the pistons are slapping around, fluids are heating, pressure increases in the crankcase above atmospheric pressure. as a result, air leaks past rings, pistons have to work to compress the air in the crankcase, etc. etc.

the 1955 solution is to vent the crankcase to atmosphere so that pressure doesn't build. this venting, however, lets bad gasses out into the environment. to address this, in modern cars the gasses are now vented back into the intake to combust and eventually get scoured by the cats instead (via an aos to remove as much liquid from the gas as possible).

so, you can vent the aos into the intake before the throttle body or after. if you vent after (as per the boxster) you will get vacuum. i see the benefit to vacuum as it will provide some scouring of the system; vent to before the throttle body and you'd get all kinds of deposition of crud.

given that, the requirement for vacuum is not of any benefit to the crank and engine longevity/efficiency. but rather to facilitate introduction of crankcase gasses into the intake. if that is the case, then redirecting the output of the aos to a catchcan at atmospheric pressure is a valid thing to do for engine health (not environmental health, however). dumping it to ground as per TPC isn't, as there is risk that liquid oil can get past the aos and make a big mess.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

i understand. what i am wondering is is whether the crankcase needs vacuum or atmospheric pressure.

the pistons are slapping around, fluids are heating, pressure increases in the crankcase above atmospheric pressure. as a result, air leaks past rings, pistons have to work to compress the air in the crankcase, etc. etc.

the 1955 solution is to vent the crankcase to atmosphere so that pressure doesn't build. this venting, however, lets bad gasses out into the environment. to address this, in modern cars the gasses are now vented back into the intake to combust and eventually get scoured by the cats instead (via an aos to remove as much liquid from the gas as possible).

so, you can vent the aos into the intake before the throttle body or after. if you vent after (as per the boxster) you will get vacuum. i see the benefit to vacuum as it will provide some scouring of the system; vent to before the throttle body and you'd get all kinds of deposition of crud.

given that, the requirement for vacuum is not of any benefit to the crank and engine longevity/efficiency. but rather to facilitate introduction of crankcase gasses into the intake. if that is the case, then redirecting the output of the aos to a catchcan at atmospheric pressure is a valid thing to do for engine health (not environmental health, however). dumping it to ground as per TPC isn't, as there is risk that liquid oil can get past the aos and make a big mess.

Actually, the slight vacuum in the crankcase is critical to the low ring tension design rings creating a seal to the cylinder walls. Eliminate the vacuum below the rings and ring seal deteriorates significantly, blow by becomes rampant, ring “flutter” starts scoring the cylinder walls, and you loose significant HP, not to mention engine longevity. Do not run one of these engines without some level of crankcase evacuation, even if it comes from a supplementary source such as a belt driven vacuum pump, common on high output race engines. On a street engine, it also aids in pollution control, but it cannot be removed without consequences………

[The Radium King]

moment of clarity for me. you don't want to equalise crankcase pressure to atmospheric, you want to equalise to the vacuum on the other side of the piston, otherwise the pressure will try to equalise from crankcase to combustion chamber via the rings.

so what to do in a forced induction situation? checkvalve ont he aos? get your vacuum for a vacuum pump instead?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

moment of clarity for me. you don't want to equalise crankcase pressure to atmospheric, you want to equalise to the vacuum on the other side of the piston, otherwise the pressure will try to equalise from crankcase to combustion chamber via the rings.

so what to do in a forced induction situation? checkvalve ont he aos? get your vacuum for a vacuum pump instead?

You always want to have lower pressure (read a level of vacuum) below the rings in low tension motors than you have above them during the engine's compression cycle on each cylinder; this will aid the low tension rings in obtaining optimum seal to the cylinder walls at the moment they need it most.

How you obtain this condition can vary all over the map. Production cars tend to use manifold vacuum, as the M96 does via the AOS system, and other makes do using a positive crankcase ventilation valve. On a race engine, some use a vacuum pick up in the header collector (slightly behind the point where the pipes come together in the collector, a properly shaped tube mounted on an angle and sealed to the collector housing with create a venturi effect and generate a slight vacuum signal, which can be routed to the crank case with hoses), or using a belt driven vacuum pump (more reliable and tunable) from suppliers like Moroso and others, which also utilize a catch can to trap oil. Either way, you get to the same place: lower parasitic drag engines with higher power output.





Non-atmospheric engines (turbo or blower) tend to go the pump route as manifold vacuum becomes non existent the instant the engine goes into boost. Just routing the AOS line down at the ground or putting in a check valve is obviously not going to provide any crankcase evacuation, and the lack of same is going to cause the rings not to seat properly...............

[The Radium King]

thanks. i was reading on the subi and 944 boards where they go pre-turbo and do similar to your exhaust sketch - use the velocity of the airflow past the vent tube to create vacuum.

[Pat]

FWIW, one of my students had a TPC turbo kit on his 986S. It was super fast and a ton of fun to drive. But every time we'd go to the track he'd dump oil on the track in sustained high-G right turns. He asked TPC about it and they told him to just run lower oil levels. He did. His engine blew up. The end.

[The Radium King]

that's a terrible story. sounds like a failing aos dumping oil; tpc perhaps should have recommended a catchtank instead.

but what do you expect for $10k? i've also read that what they call 'custom turbo' is a made in china garret knock-off; if you want a quality turbo you have to buy their stage II kit. too bad, i kinda wanted to believe their hype ...

[Dale_K]

I had a 6.7L Cummins diesel in a Dodge pickup truck and it came with an air/oil separator. The owner's manual called for it's replacement at 67k miles. Interestingly, the ECU monitored crankcase pressure and would display a message if the AOS failed.

Cummins used an AOS because it provided better oil control (less oil burned). On recent diesel pickups the entire exhaust gas stream is run through a particulate filter, which is periodically burned off at high temperatures in a process called regeneration. The filter is quite expensive and must be warrantied for EPA emission system compliance. The main culprit in clogging up the filter is not carbon soot because that can be burned off. The problem comes from non-combustible ash and a big element (no pun) is zinc anti wear ingredients in the motor oil. The AOS contributes to the particulate filter life by reducing the amount of motor oil consumed. The motor oil itself was also reformulated to use less zinc (ashless oil).

[Pat]

Yeah, he dumped oil a while, then they suggested he run a catch can and less oil. IIRC this was on his stage II kit.