Winter Storage
 

So it's getting close to time to put the P-car down for a long winter's nap. I'm sure there are tons of tips but I have a specific question:

After reading the whole "Motor Oil 101" article, and how storing motor oil in cold weather basically ruins it, I'm considering doing half the oil change - drain it and change the filter but don't refill it and putting a BIG tag on the dashboard that says "DO NOT START - NO MOTOR OIL"....

I don't want to leave the old oil in there, and filling it with 9 quarts of expensive Mobil 1 that will be no good in the spring is not very appealing either! Has anyone dealt with this? How about refilling it with 9 quarts of cheap mineral oil and changing it again in the spring?

TIA

storing w/o any oil? :eek: = Terrible idea idea unless you're planning to fully "mothball" the engine... You'd be better served leaving old oil in there, then changing it in spring...

But why? The oil drains to the sump anyway, it's not like having a full sump is going to protect the cylinder walls, chains, lifters, etc.....and the old oil contains acids anyway and will just form sludge won't it? I was thinking of adding stabilizer, fogging the engine, draining the oil, and stuffing some oily rags in the exhaust pipes...

You just answered your own question as to what you should be doing; you should change the oil and filter before putting the car up. I don't know what you read, but several decades of experience says that article is nonsense...........

I agree with JFP's suggestion here. If you're concerned about putting the car up with contaminated oil, just change it right before putting it up, and unless you're really not going to touch the car whatsoever over the dormant period, just take the car out for a drive when you get the opportunities of nice days over the winter, and that way it doesn't sit totally unmoved and unlubed until that lone startup at the beginning of spring.

And even if you do decide not to run the car at all over the winter, I really doubt a fresh fill of good synthetic is going to get completely ruined over a winter of sitting. I'm not an oil expert by any means, but I have to imagine more than one source would be up in arms about it if it was really that big of a concern that it could cause some sort of damage.

A couple of UoA's on oil from stored cars agrees with Overdrive; the oil does not deteriorate or show signs of contamination after a car sitting for nearly six months.......... Get the car ready, change the oil and let it sit.

Exactly. Like this one, from my car. It's hibernated every year from mid Oct till early April. I never start it. Stored with fresh oil (<1,000 miles). Last UOA was Mobil 5W50 all prior were Red Line 5W40:

I know in the past this topic has been beaten to death, and there very divided views with regard to storing a vehicle for the winter . However, regardless of the fact that I use a battery maintainer, I still like to periodically start my vehicle and let it run for a significant period of time (a 1/2 hour or more) in order to circulate the oil and fluids . Does anyone disagree with this ?

Yes, I do. Tests on the oil in cars stored, some started, others not, for prolonged periods shows that cars that are started and run for periods of time (not driven) tend to show fuel contamination, moisture build up, and partial break down of the additve packages. The cars left alone tested fine.

Unless the car is going to be driven for a prolonged period, you are better off not starting it at all.

Good to know . I guess I'll have to break the start and run habit .

I disagree. For many reasons.

Okay, maybe I need to clarify this a little bit because I think the point is being missed:

I am storing my car in a detached, unheated garage in CT over the winter. It's a big eight bay on my uncle's gentleman farm and it's 30 miles from home, so I won't be taking it for a spin. I also have some work to do on it, getting the rims refinished, etc so it's going to be sitting on jack stands until spring.

And, as the article in Rennsport states: "Motor oil becomes permanently thicker with exposure to northerly winter type weather. This is more of a problem to mineral based oils. Waxes form. This is why it is a bad idea to even store a bottle of oil in a cold garage. It goes bad on the garage shelf just because it is exposed to the cold."

So if storing a new bottle of motor oil in a cold garage is bad news, then certainly letting a fresh fall oil change sit in the crankcase in a garage that will be going down to 0 degrees overnight is not doing it any favors. The "new" oil will be severely degraded by spring. If you live in San Diego, you're going to be fine. If you live in North Dakota, you're not. You should change it again in the spring and just throw out $50 of clean Mobil One?

Or change the oil in the fall with cheap mineral oil, toss it in the spring and put in the synthetic? Or leave it empty in the winter?

TIA

Ive been storing sports cars in unheated and partially detached garages every winter for 25 years. I change the oil and fill up the gas tank and either remove the battery, or since I bought the Porshe put it on a battery float charger, and leave it for the winter. Never had any engine trouble on any of my vehicles-and I stored my TR8 this way for over 20 years. I store two vehicles in the unheated, uninsultated 2nd garage that the orignal owner added to my property every winter these days. I'd worry more about damage from mice than from the oil. I live at 8700 ft in Colorado and it gets plenty cold here. I also store my oil in that garage, and again never had any engine problems from using it. More important to make sure the gas tank is full and that someone will be cleaning out the mouse traps you set around the car over the winter. - And I've never thrown out my oil in the spring.

Only problem is that you should be using a full synthetic rather than a mineral based oil, so the point is moot................... Full synthetics from major suppliers (I have no data on the small "blenders") has a projected shelf life of three to five years (depending upon manufacturer) when stored from -20 to +120F (most oil suppliers do not store oil inventory in environmental controlled facilities, and bulk storage such as drums or tanks is actually done outside; and my local supplier's outside inventory sees 0F and worse outside every winter). UoA's have confirmed that this is correct. So the oil, in your pan, in CT, in the winter, in your uncle’s garage, will do just fine..........

And just as a by-the-by, leaving the car on jackstands with the suspension hanging all winter is also a "no-no".....

This will be your second mistake.

My first mistake was asking the question in the first place.

No one has yet weighed in with any demonstrable issue that could arise from leaving the crankscase empty until spring, or any a possible benefit of leaving it full.

Wow, you're good 3 for 3. Just like Albert last night. Congrats. You got your answers, you just fail to listen to them. Maybe this is an iusse for you. Use the "search" feature, and learn. But, you may need to adjust your attitude first.

You're a real prince, Flavor, you should sign up for your attitude adjustment. Read the thread from the beginning. Burg said it was a terrible idea, and leave in the old oil with no explanation of how old oil is better than no oil. JFP said to do the change, experience dictated it - that was fine.

Overdrive agreed with JFP.

You chimed in with your ever-so-helpful "I disagree for many reasons" and yet gave none, just lobbed that little grenade over the wall and fled.

I clarified my initial post a little more saying the car would be stored in cold conditions and this has been said to adversely affect oils, especially (but not exclusively) mineral oils (though I always use synthetics). Dave S. responded that it had not been his personal experience that over-the-winter oil changes or storing oil in cold conditions had ever caused him any issues. Helpful, but not really what I was asking though I appreciate the effort and response.

JFP helpfully said that that manufacturers guaranteed shelf life, even if stored to -20 F. He also added it was not a good idea to leave the car on stands.

You chimed in ever-so-helpfully again with another little grenade, even though the point had been stated - "This will be your second mistake" - couldn't resist being snide, could ya?

So your "answers" haven't really been answers at all, have they Einstein? And forgive me for "failing to listen" to you, but I really choose not to.

Next time you feel compelled to respond to a thread of mine, take a deep breath and wait for the urge to pass.

Good Old Flavor - NOT !

Sometimes I too would like a more detailed answer from JFP in PA. I would like to know his thoughts about the suspension hanging. But I guess he has to protect his livelihood. Folks like him giving out free mechanical information to folks like me would make less work for the repair shops. Just yesterday my son and I spent the afternoon tearing down his car's engine after talking to a mechanic. Have to have the head redone.

PB77, I'm not an engineer but 40 years of motorcycling has taught me a thing or two about engines sitting over the winter. I think a good reason to leave the oil in could be the same reason we leave the fuel tank full of fuel. To keep corrosion out. Any surface not covered is exposed to the elements and corrosion can begin. Yes I know there are folks who fog an engine and it works out fine. Fortunately for me, I choose to ride all year even though in the winter months of December - March it may only be once or twice per month. I keep my oil clear of moisture by taking 50 to 100 mile rides. And my Boxster S is my Wifes daily driver, so no problems there.

The suspension issue is a simple one: Leaving it hanging exposes the shafts on the struts, which can and will develop a slight level of rust/corrosion. When put back into service, this corrosion will chew up the end seals, causing the strut to leak, requiring premature replacement. Porsche actually had a dealer bulletin on this one.

Peterbrown, you're right. I'm sorry.

Drain that oil. Jack 'er up nice and high. Get that coolant out too. Put a BIG note on it. Bleed the brakes dry. Empty the gas. Put a BIG note on it. You don't want to forget in the Spring.

How many Post-It notes do you have, anyways??

If you want some great Winter Hibernation tips, search some old threads from 2005/2006 from MNBoxster. Use key words 'winter' 'hibernation' 'storage' under him screen name. I've been following that for over 5 years. MNBoxster does not post here anymore under that screen. He now goes by Lil Basterd, aka Jim, aka Andy.

My opinion is drive it 20 miles once a month on nice days and forget all this BS. Been doing this for decades with no issues.

After you jack it up, let about 1/2 the air out of the tires too. This will help remove the moisture and stuff. Make sure you leave yourself a BIG note again.

Really, Paul? No issues. Why the engine replacement at 89K??

20 miles is not much in cold weather.

I think part of why people are telling you to leave the oil in the vehicle and that they haven't experienced problems over the winter in doing so (myself included, ungaraged and simply car-covered) is because they're trying to say that it's not really necessary to go to the lengths you're intending to store the car over the winter. It's your car and your decision, but while people may not have an answer for your exact question of problems that could arise from what you want to do, they're giving you an alternative that will not be problematic, contrary to what you have read, and will save you time, money, and worry: leaving the car stored as is with a fresh oil change (if you choose), some fuel stabilizer, a battery maintainer, and pat on the head. If I can be a bit blunt without meaning to offend, I think you're really going overboard with that storage unless you really intend to have the car sit for more than a season or two.

Even then, my car sat on a dealer's lot right here in CT for 5 years with whatever oil was in it and 1/4 tank of gas before I became the owner. I used to see the car a lot, and I think it may have moved twice to a different space in the same row on the lot, but still, it just sat. 5 years of both weather extremes, nevermind dive-bombing birds (an entirely separate issue), and when I came along and asked to take it for a test drive, the car started up and drove just fine. The oil that was put in it the day before I took it home stayed in it from June 2010 to June 2011.

If you happen to live anywhere near me, you may remember that this past winter in between those two Junes served us with 3-4 feet of snow in one good storm, followed by another that threw another foot on top of that, and to top it off both storms' snowfalls proceeded to freeze over and start collpasing roofs of homes. Temperatures were freezing or lower for weeks at times. My car suffered through that just fine (that isn't to say I wasn't worried, though). I just hooked it up to the battery maintainer overnight once every week or 2 (I only cleared a path to the driver's door, the rest surrounding the car had to melt), and she started up just fine once the thaw came, and drove fine for a few more months until it came time to get some maintenance done right about the same time the year limit I set for myself on oil changes came around.

Like I said before, I figure a good quality synthetic oil that's going to cost you nearly $10 a quart or sometimes more is not going to be unable to handle temperature extremes. That's why we're paying so much for it, among other reasons, but that's certainly one of them. I want my oil to work whether it's 10 below or 140 outside. I'm sure some degradation is going to occur, as is bound to happen just from the substance existing, but the majority of us don't really question how long a quart or 5 quart container has been sitting on a store's shelves before we go tossing it into the car, do we? Nor do we know the conditions the oil has been stored and transported in prior to landing on the shelf where we buy it. How can we gauge just how much life the oil has lost in those cases prior to our use in a vehicle? If it were really that serious, then some supplier, somewhere, with a poorly or non-temp controlled warehouse up north full of motor oil is sitting on a huge lawsuit.

Germany sees nice extreme winters too, and that's where these cars were expected to be driven. I'm sure there's a decent number of folks in Germany who drive their Boxsters year-round and don't worry about oil degrading due to the cold.

First one in my long history of Porsche ownership and it was most likely a slipped sprocket on the crankshaft. Since the oil is warmed by the oil "cooler" it quickly matches the coolant temp even in sub zero weather.

I have stored an Infiniti I 35 every winter for several years without doing anything and it was never a problem. I plan to do much the same wth my 2003 Boxster S. My question is, Is it ok to disconnect the battery for the 6 weeks in the winter when I go away? It is stored inside a garage.

Peter - It sounds like synthetics are good in a large temp range for extended cold temps so no issue there. Seems putting $70 worth of new oil in and if you want replacing in the spring is a not an expensive investment. If you do need to drive it for any reason at least it won't be empty of oil.

When I lived in the Lake Placid NY area I would see both used and new cars sit for 6 months on dealer lots and they would only get driven from one end of the lot to the other. Doesn't mean it is OK, but it has been this way for years.

I have extra room in my garage in NC if you want to store it here :)...I'll treat it like one of the family :cheers:

Once you hook your battery up again, you will need to:

enter your radio code

roll the windows up, release the switches, then hold down in the up position for a few seconds to reprogram the up position.

Turn the key on without touching the gas, wait 1 minute, turn it off for 10 seconds, then start and enjoy.

No radio code required in 2003.

Buy a quality batter maintainer, like Porsche's, for about $47 from places like Sunset, and keep the car pluged in whenever not being driven. Don't disconnect the battery.

Overdrive, Whip, Paul, JFP - thanks for the advice. Makes sense about exposing the piston rods on the struts leading to corrosion. It's going to have to suffer that indignity for a while until I get the rims back from the shop because, short of buying "storage wheels" or trying to rest it on the disks, there is no way around it. I will try to keep it to a minimum duration. If I can eyeball them I'll spray some Starrett on the exposed parts once the suspension is unloaded.

Still deciding about the oil situation. While there is obvious advantage in leaving a car with a full fuel tank to prevent condensation (especially with ethanol in the fuel) I'm still not certain about it's benefit with the motor oil. Look at it this way: you would have to actually fill the entire crankcase with oil to achieve the same effect. Whether there's an 8 quart puddle of oil below the cylinders/crankshaft/bearing/seals/camshafts seems kind of irrelevant. Like Flavor's posts, but on a mechanical scale. It's just sitting there, lubricating nothing. In fact, I had an oil pan rust through on the diesel on my boat for leaving the oil in through the winter Condensation puddles at the bottom of the oil pan, under the oil, and it has nowhere to go. I now leave it empty and the plug out so it has an exit.

Overdrive - where in CT? I live near Essex but work in Middletown.

Thanks to all, with obvious exception of one among us.

Just a reminder to keep it all civil, please. Oil and related topics always seem to generate some heat.

So, let's all be cool about this.

Thanks

Like Brucelee said, don't take anything personally, just take what's useful to you.

I live in the Hartford area. Considering the two places you frequent, you know exactly what happened to that central band of the state last winter. :mad:

I'd say as far as your corrosion concerns with the oil pan, it's not an unfounded concern, but the fresher your oil, the less contamination you'll have coming into Spring, right? ;)

As for the suspension, why not try taking four more jack stands with some cushion on the resting points (rags, thick towels, etc.) and crank them up under the rotors so that they keep the suspension compressed without hurting anything.

Could find some cheap black steelies with crap tires, too. Matter of fact, I have 3 black steelies and my doughnut from the Corolla sitting at home (used one stocker for a full size spare). No idea if they'll fit the Boxster since they're 15s (I think the doughnut is a 16 or 17) and I know the Boxster's smallest OEMs were 16s, but I'll have to see if it's possible. If they do you're welcome to borrow them so the car can sit off of jack stands.

Regarding the float charger, just buy a good one, if it doesn't have to say Porsche on it you can save money and get one that works for years.

Deltran Battery Tender, Jr. You can probably find one for as little as $40, and it works great, though you may need to buy a cigarette lighter adapter connection for it separetly if it doesn't come with it. Found mine for $8 on Amazon. And in case you didn't know, dpaisley325, there's a small cutout in the weather stripping on the bottom of the door that allows you to run an extension cable through the car so your battery maintainer's connector can be run into the car and you don't need to leave your hood open to be directly connected to the battery.

Put my Boxster away for the winter today. Up to 18 inches of snow forecast starting tomorrow night. I'll miss it until spring... Looking forward to ski season though.