Ouch, IMS failure on Ebay

[mptoledo]

Jake, How long will this take? Is this something I can come in for the weekend and then drive it home? You know like make a small vacation out of it?

Also, please excuse my auto ignorance on this, but I have triptronic, would this effect the clutch plate and price ?

[Jake Raby]

We do not work weekends... I have 70-80 hours in by 1700 on Friday afternoon.

We require the car for 3 days.

The first day the tranny and all components are pulled and we perform diagnostics on the remainder of the engine to ensure it is worthy of the IMSR procedure.

The second day we install the IMSR, fit the clutch assembly and reassemble to the point of testing.

The third day we evaluate the arrangement on the dyno, and then field test the vehicle to ensure there are no leaks or odd noises.

I have several people taking time over the fall and winter to deliver their car here to have this done. We are helping them to arrange accomodations and allow them a Boxster test vehicle as a loaner while they are here.. Our area is beautiful in the fall as we are in the Appalachian Mountains just south of Helen Georgia and it's Alpine Village.

[mptoledo]

I guess I should have said any day as weekends really have no meaning any more ( except when the Buckeyes play). About my second part of the question.... Does a triptronic change the equation at all, meaning... does it effect the amount of work to be done or the price?

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

We do not work weekends... I have 70-80 hours in by 1700 on Friday afternoon.

We require the car for 3 days.

The first day the tranny and all components are pulled and we perform diagnostics on the remainder of the engine to ensure it is worthy of the IMSR procedure.

The second day we install the IMSR, fit the clutch assembly and reassemble to the point of testing.

The third day we evaluate the arrangement on the dyno, and then field test the vehicle to ensure there are no leaks or odd noises.

I have several people taking time over the fall and winter to deliver their car here to have this done. We are helping them to arrange accomodations and allow them a Boxster test vehicle as a loaner while they are here.. Our area is beautiful in the fall as we are in the Appalachian Mountains just south of Helen Georgia and it's Alpine Village.

[pteam]

Has there seriously not been a class action lawsuit against porsche for this? I mean tens of thousands of engine failures ovbiously means a major flaw in the design...

There haven't been "tens of thousands" of failures. Only Porsche knows the true number of failures, and they won't disclose that information for a multitude of reasons, but most estimates by people in the aftermarket with reasonably good information put the number at 1-3% of all M96 powered Carrera and Boxster cars. That is certainly a high percentage, as a modern engine design should be well under 1%, but the problem in creating a class action suit over this is the fact that a good percentage of those who had failures had theirs covered under warranty, during the warranty period. Obviously that group of owners are not in a position to sue anyone. The other group of owners, who had cars fail outside of warranty, are well, outside of warranty. In the past there seemed to be some evidence to support the notion that the only cars that failed were those that weren't driven, however now that we're seeing more cars reach higher mileages and that are failing, there is less to support that position. We all agree that Porsche's choice of a sealed ball bearing to support the rear of the intermediate shaft was not the best idea. However, from a basic legal standpoint, Porsche is not required to provide you anything once the warranty has expired.

To go after Porsche with a successful class action suit, one would need to find some really damning evidence that would show that Porsche was aware of this design defect, that the defect could be fixed, and that Porsche neglected to do so. Working on the assumption that this is the case, the only place that information could be obtained is likely from inside Porsche. So, unless someone working for our cause is either a professional spy, or has a very good friend who works in Stuttgart and is willing to put his job on the line (and likely be both criminally prosecuted and civilly sued himself if caught), we're never going to see that documentation.

In one of the largest settlements in the auto industry, Ford paid out significantly when sued over the Pinto. The damning evidence in the case was that Ford was aware of the safety problems with the car, and had actually asked the legal and accounting departments to run numbers to determine if it was cheaper to do a recall or to risk possible future litigation. They determined that even if sued, the expected settlement (s) would still be cheaper than fixing the actual problem on tens of thousands of cars. That information sealed Ford's fate in that case, but obtaining similar information against Porsche, in modern times, is likely impossible.

In Porsche's legal defense, they may claim that there was nothing that could be done short of completely redesigning the engine, and that that effort had been in the works for the last 10 years with the result being the Series 2 engines. It would also be very difficult to get a jury to have any sympathy for a Porsche owner who had to spend some money on vehicle maintenance (which is exactly how their defense would spin it).

Class action suits are long, expensive propositions, with the typical outcome being that that law firm who started it makes several million, and everyone else gets a check ranging from $4.32 to $431.39.

To everyone who has suffered an engine failure in these cars, it is a terrible thing that in most cases, should have never happened. To those who have not, we recommend the LN Engineering IMS update.

[Jake Raby]

A gavel won't solve this problem... I am contacted often by those who want to take this issue to court, and I refuse to work with them.

Energy is much better exerted creating solutions to the issues rather than ********************ing and moaning about them....


Now that the IMSR is available, people have a course of preventive measure to guard against the issues.. It took us years to work out, but we have perfected it in a short time while working with LN Engineering.

[Perfectlap]

If a high profile enough attorney went after Porsche for this they could force some manner of "master settlement agreement" like the kind that occurred in the Tobacco industry. Everyone said that could never happen in a million years and sure enough Tobacco coughed up $50 billion. Granted bigger numbers were at stake so they thought the case was well worth the fight but still an extraordinary uphill battle since Tobacco had never in its history settled for even a dime. This IMS issue would be a heck of a lot easier.
In the end you don't really need to win the case just create enough bad press that the higher ups decide at a time of low auto sales fighting it would cost them more than addressing the problem on a very small number of cars when you compare Porsche to other auto makers. Also, settlements aren't just limited to cash payouts, they can take any number of forms. Porsche could be forced to provide service and parts instead of paying out cash damages (or sub this work out to indy shops to cut costs). Right now lawyers are starving for work, this being the first time maybe ever that big firms have had to layoff attorneys. Partners are having to take cases they never in a million years thought they would need to take.

If I were a deep-pocketed lawyer fresh off the heels of a big recovery I would definitely think about running an ad in Excellence to go fishing for a class. I'm sure there's a few lawyers out there who own a Porsche or two and would find this case intriguing.

[blinkwatt]

From Dave! on Rennlist;

Here's a youtube clip of an IMS dying--you can hear it come in a little after 1:00 while the engine still has power, but who knows if the engine was already toast at that point. Pretty low quality audio so the sound was probably noticeable sooner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BQ5XAIzNVA

It's kind of painful to watch because you hear the sound come in and he keeps on going and you just know and oh god oh god why isn't he turning the engine off CLACK clunk clunk clunk clunk... ****************.

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

If a high profile enough attorney went after Porsche for this they could force some manner of "master settlement agreement" like the kind that occurred in the Tobacco industry. Everyone said that could never happen in a million years and sure enough Tobacco coughed up $50 billion. Granted bigger numbers were at stake so they thought the case was well worth the fight but still an extraordinary uphill battle since Tobacco had never in its history settled for even a dime. This IMS issue would be a heck of a lot easier.
In the end you don't really need to win the case just create enough bad press that the higher ups decide at a time of low auto sales fighting it would cost them more than addressing the problem on a very small number of cars when you compare Porsche to other auto makers. Also, settlements aren't just limited to cash payouts, they can take any number of forms. Porsche could be forced to provide service and parts instead of paying out cash damages (or sub this work out to indy shops to cut costs). Right now lawyers are starving for work, this being the first time maybe ever that big firms have had to layoff attorneys. Partners are having to take cases they never in a million years thought they would need to take.

If I were a deep-pocketed lawyer fresh off the heels of a big recovery I would definitely think about running an ad in Excellence to go fishing for a class. I'm sure there's a few lawyers out there who own a Porsche or two and would find this case intriguing.

Agreed.

There are such things as Rules of Discovery associated with civil suits. Assuming a court was presented with sufficient evidence that a significant enough number of Porsche owners are having the exact same kind of catastrophic engine failure, I could definitely see a judge requiring the company to come forth with pertinent documentation on the matter. It could take a long time, granted. Porsche no doubt has some highly talented lawyers working for them.

There are warranties beyond what’s in writing. Bottom line would be whether a relatively expensive automobile that only runs for a few tens of thousands of miles before dying an ugly death, mechanically speaking, meets the standard of an implied warranty of merchantability that a car company should be held to. With Japanese cars running hundreds of thousands of miles without enormously expensive failures occurring, I suspect a good lawyer could make the case that it does not.

[Perfectlap]

You can easily make a nice trip out of a few days in Hot Lanta. the best would be to schedule it around the NASACR race or the Petit Le Mans race at Road Atlanta.
Then you have all those restaraunts. I had to spend three months there one year and put on....30 pounds! Altanta doesn't have much of a night life but I think it has arguably the best eateries in the country for the money. From Fat Mack's Rib Shack to Asian fusion place like Fuse Box to steak places like Chops to first rate Italian (yes Italian) like Pricci. Drop the car off on a Wednesday, see the races on the weekend, drive the Boxster home on a Monday.

hmmm....new suspension or engine insurance...