How many Porsche owners experience "Customer no-service" at their dealership?
 

I wanted to take a minute to ask a few of you about your experiences at you local Porsche dealership.

The question, "How many Porsche owners experience customer no-service at their local dealership?" This question applies to people who are new to Porsche and bought one new or used, and the same for long term Porsche owners.

As I have posted in the past, I bought my first brand new Porsche in June 2004.

To make a long story short, I traded in my beautiful 2004 Boxster after 5 1/2 months of ownership and 8440 miles. The car itself was amazing which was the best part of the ownership experience.

What killed the remainder of my ownership experience was sub-standard customer service my local dealership, Tom Williams Porsche in Birmingham, AL. I live 10 miles from the dealership, but had to take my car 180 east to Jim Ellis Porsche of Atlanta to have a flat tire replaced the first week of ownership. This was the first of a few trips to Atlanta to have little things done to the car, i.e. adjustments, oil change and ordering simple accessories.

Buying a new $50K car from a dealer that close to my home only to take it 2 1/2 hours away to Atlanta for everything it needed was rediculous and unnecessary.

I received a postcard from Tom Williams Porsche last week, inviting current and previous Porsche owners down to drive the new 987. My fiancee and I went down to check it out. We were in the showroom for 25 minutes and no one spoke to us. Annoyed and about to leave, I asked the receptionist if I could see the Dave, the General Manager. She informed me that he was no longer with the dealership and the new manager was out of the building at the time. I explained to her that I was invited by their postcard to come down and was not approached or acknowledged. Once she grabbed one of the 3 available salesman, I expressed how poorly I have been treated in the past and again that day. I also informed him that I traded my 04 Boxster after 5 months of ownership, listing the problems I had with the dealership and their customer no-service. After a 20 minute conversation, he finally let us drive the new 987 and 987S.

Upon returning after driving both models, I told the salesman the 987S is an amazing car and its what a Boxster should be. My fiancee piped up about how we loved the car, but slammed him on how we were treated that day and in the past. I told him I would not buy a new $62k Boxster from Tom Williams Porsche and be treated poorly again. This raised a few eyebrows on the potential customers standing around that day. I hope some of them would still buy a Porsche, but not from that dealership.

I am seriously considering a 997S. I am very hesitant about buying an $85K new 911 Carerra S only to take it 2 1/2 hrs way each way to Atlanta, GA or Montgomery, AL for anything it may need. That is way too much effort for a car of this caliber. I would expect taking a car like a Bentley, Ferrari, Lotus, Lamborghini or a Carrera GT to Atlanta due to the rarity of these cars, but not a Porsche Boxster or 911. On occasion, I'm in Atlanta for business or pleasure. I just hate driving to Atlanta and not have my Porsche for the the time I'm out there, because its at Jim Ellis for service. I should be able to have it serviced here locally in Birmingham and enjoy it on my business and pleasure trips to Atlanta.

This is why I'm asking the question about overall experiences at other Porsche dealerships across the country. I would love to buy another Porsche (#4), because I am a Porsche enthusiast.

For a new $42,000 to $440,000 Porsche, I should be treated as well as I have at Infiniti, Jeep, Saturn, Honda, VW, Toyota (mom's Camry LE) and yes, Hyundai (fiancee's Santa Fe). Out of all of the cars currently in my family and the may different dealers we visit to have our cars serviced, the Porsche was the only aggravation I had. That is why I traded my Boxster in for my second Infiniti G35.
The Boxster, all by itself, was not enough to override the remaining negative ownership experience.

Looking for stories good and bad, especially from new Porsche owners.

Dave,

Birmingham, AL

I have had dealings with two Porsche dealers.

I purchased my Boxster from HBL of Tyson’s in Northern Virginia. The two times I went to the show room prior to purchasing the car, a salesperson came up to me with in 2 minutes of walking in the door. The only time I brought the car in for service there, the level of professionalism was as high as I expected it to be. Overall, HBL left a very good impression on me. The thing that I really liked about buying the car there was that I felt like my salesperson actually wanted to sell me the car. I had gone to a BMW dealer (BMW of Fairfax) before HBL to look at some 5 series and the salesperson basically told me that he sold so many cars that it really didn’t matter if I bought one or not. I promptly left, and have never been back to that dealer even though they called 3 times a week for three months after I walked out.

After I moved to St. Louis, I started going to Plaza Motors. I've taken the car in for service once and everything was as expected. My only gripe about Plaza is similar to something you mentioned. Twice now I have been in there to seriously look at cars and after standing around for 15 minutes waiting for some help I just left. I really think it’s my age (26), because I went into Plaza once with my mom and we were helped right away. However, I’ve also been to the other parts of Plaza (they have BMW and MB to name a few) and salespeople were all over me.

Guys-

Maybe this is a US thing. I saw a lot of complaints of various forums on Porsche dealers.
Mine is excellent and I have not heard any friend with Porsches complain.
Believe me they treat the customer like kings.
From selling to delivery to giving opportunities of test drives of new models etc. Really top notch service you'd like to see anywhere else.
Even on the phone, the mechanics have always all the answers. They and also salesmen call back etc.

Good luck with this.

BTW-> Even if it was a crappy service I'd still not sit in a Jap car. You're punishing yourself! not PORSCHE !!! :-)

i agree, the service i get is really good, cup of tea as soon as you go in... yes sir, no problem sir... the way it should be 10/10

qporscheq, i am 25 i know 100% what you mean... its annoying. Now i make sure i pull up in my boxster and make sure they see me getting out. I am changing or getting another car soon like in the next few weeks and so far i havent really had any dealings with a salesman but i always take my dad along when ever i do a deal as the last time i was looking there were saleman standing around ignoring me which pissed me off, oh yer and the grin on there face was annoying which i should has knocked off his face.

While I've yet to need service on my (used) '01 Boxster, I have visited the dealership where it was purchased, and have been warmly greeted by the saleman, who still remembers me. As it's winter and snowy here, I've not had much occasion to drive my car, but have had a few pleasent conversations with Derrick, their service guy, regarding some mods I'm reluctant to try at at home. I hate hearing about experiences such as yours, as it's a real shame what should be a wonderful relationship with a fine automobile has been sullied by poor service. I feel for you, but maybe you jumped the gun a bit un-loading your car. As I understand it, dealerships are awarded to potential owners after a long process, specifically to avoid poor management, which in turn diminishes the repution of the brand. I'm sure yours is not an isolated case at this particular establishment. If Porsche-America (or whatever the parent company is called) were to hear of this, the paryt or parties responsible would be made to shape up or ship out. I know of a few GM dealers who had their franchise revoked for just this sort of thing. Take this to the next level; your desire to own a wonderful car shouldn't be obliterated by the ineptitude of some clown. :eek:

qporscheq and porsche 986,

I'm 35 and look a little younger than I am. You would think the salesman would be a little more receptive to their younger buyers, after all isn't that what the age group the Boxster is aimed toward?

It may have been extreme to unload the Boxster so quickly, but I was not getting any help from Porsche at that time. I traded the Boxster on Veteran's Day in November on my G35 Coupe. I took a major bath on the car, which ACV'd (actual cash value) at $34,000...this was a $49,000 Boxster that was only 5 1/2 months old.

I have been in contact with other dealers and wholesalers in the area and asked them why it was so difficult to find someone willing to buy my Boxster in trade even at this extreme depreciation. They told me there were so many new Porsches on the market locally due to the issues at Tom Williams Porsche. People are getting out of their Porsches in droves. The word is out about the horrible service at this dealer, therefore locals are unwilling to buy used ones. Most of the Porsches that are on the market here are wholesaled to Atlanta, Florida and Tennessee.

Crown Mercedes/Infiniti took a chance on selling my Boxster and are having difficulty getting rid of it. It was on e-bay last week for the second time at $34,750. No bids. My Boxster is ultra clean, no dings, no dents, no scratches no curb rash, no interior wear and I'm not a smoker. The car was serviced early and garage kept. I have been in contact with a few locals that were interested in the car, but not interested in driving 87 miles south to Montgomery, AL. It will probably end up in Atlanta soon.

Porsche has contacted me recently to get my take on the dealership. They are very interested in what I have to say about this dealership. Hopefully something will be done soon, unfortunately they have a really bad reputation to overcome.

Jeannot,

My G35 is not a Porsche by any stretch, nor am I comparing its performance, safety and engineering to a Porsche. Simply put, they treat me well, the car retains its value better than my Boxster did, I have more standard options on my first G35 Sedan and current G35 Coupe and they stand behind their cars. Shouldn't Porsche? I felt I was punished for owning a $50,000 Porsche (a true semi-exotic sportscar) and it was a slap in the face to a loyal long-term (21 years) Porsche owner.

Upgrading to my first new "Porsche" I gained an amazing sportscar and a convertible, but lost how well I was treated by Infiniti and any other dealer. I also lost the standard options I had in my first G35; (horsepower, xenons, VDC, Traction Control, Bose, Homelink, heated seats, delay wipers, alarm system, tilt and telescopic steering, 6 disc in-dash CD changer, XM Satellite Radio to name a few) none of which were on my Boxster that cost $12,000 more. Granted, if I bought a loaded S, I would have gained most of it back, but spent another $16,000.

I would love to have another Porsche, a real sports car, but its proving to be difficult to own here in Birmingham, AL.


Dave

My experience is not typical in that I deal Porsches. Hence, I am at the local service shop 2-4 times a week.

It took some time, but I have a great working relationship with the service and parts guys. They will go way over the extra mile and I appreciate that. I "work" them extra hard and they reciprocate in kind.

Having said that, I agree that when one purchases a car with a price tag like Porsche affixes, one should be treated with the upmost respect!

I am in southern california and I also have had horrible service. I was in the market for a cayenne or a used 996, however the sales associates showed no interest in my presence in the showroom. I went to 2 dealers and the same results for both. extreme snobbiness of the salemen just really gets me mad. I wish I could say "You work at a porsche dealer, however can you afford one?" Now with my 2004 boxster, I have had many problems with it. I saw that someone on this board had said that german engineering is superior to the japanese automobiles.If they are so superior, how is it that the japanses vehicles never have problems?(ex rms, electrical radio glitches, weather sealing,)I understand that japanese cars can be bland and boring, but the outrageous price of an oil change, the frequent trips to the service department and the constant fighting with dealership is almost nonexistent.
I love my $50000 boxster and it has been the most fun car I have ever owned, however my $27000 toyota tundra has had 0 trips to the dealership and they treat me like i am royalty. The bad taste in my mouth from the dealerships for that matter, will play a big part in my decision to buy a P car. That doesn't mean I'm doubting that the porsche is not great car, but I believe when the imperfection of this automobile peaks its head again, I would wish it was a honda or toyota

The dealership here in Fort Wayne is pretty good compared to you guys :)
Its always "Hello Mr. Tran", "What can we help you with Mr. Tran", etc... they always use titles. The service techs even come out to talk to you. The parts dept cuts me deals on prices if I'm paying for something $$$$ or something stupid like an umbrella :cool:

To be fair, I have had some less than stellar dealings with Lexus dealers. Yes, they sell a great car (I have had maybe 6 Lexus over the years). However, they DO BREAK and the service dept can get a bit sticky on the warranty coverage, esp their CPO coverage, which is not as "new car" as they advertise it to be.

Having said that, Porsche can, and should, build a more bullet proof car. There is no excuse for not, given that the basic design has been around for a very long time.

No excuse for rear main seal leaks. What is with that?

Bruce, I have a LS400 and the service, under extended warranty, was so supurb I would always tell people they made me feel like the king of the world when my car was in for service... often replacing or upgrading computer chips or parts totalling 1500.00 or more when it went in for a complimentary oil change, all paid for under warranty!

<b>Rear Main Seal:</b> Hans, my new best friend and Porsche certified mechanic, told me that the RMS problems in earlier Boxsters like mine were due to <b>out of balance crank shafts</b> which eventually created leaks in the rear main seal.

I guess Porsche didn't want to lose that much money replacing thousands of engines and worse, the news hitting CNN, etc., that their cars had a major recall for an engine replacement.

bought my 2000 S with 10,000 miles ($30K) from the used lot of a large Acura dealer. Actually I bought it on Ebay but the seller was local dealer so I went down to take a look. Here in NJ we get a 90 day warranty as part of the state's LemonLaw.com, this was very important to me, even though there were slightly lower priced S models on Ebay. But the low mileage and the NJ warranty was key.

I got 4.5% financing through HSBC who do the auto loans for Ebay. I was actually given a real check for as much as $75K within 24 hours. They also offered 6 months zero finance. (This was my first auto loan by the way)
The salesman was brand new young guy and very eager as he was in charge of getting cars sold on the internet. As part of my deal asked if they could hold onto my Boxster in the used showroom for a couple of weeks. They agreed so I put the Miata on Ebay and within 7 days I had a seller from Florida fly up and give me nearly $7K cash for a 1994 with 110,000 miles. This was the second solid experiecne I had selling a used car on eBay. Shoud have bought the stock back in 1998 when I joined.

For servicing an parts I plan on taking it to Ray Catena Porsche in Edison New Jersey. They are a very large dealership sellling Primarily Mercedez. They also sell Aston Martin, Maserati, Lexus.

Ray Caten could run a clininc on how to run a first class dealership. Not unlike a five star hotel. As soon as you drive into their parts lot there are several attendants (I counted 5) directing you to the right area depending on your car. At Porsche counter I counted not less than 10 employees servicing Porsche and Mercedez. Everything was immaculate and this is the parts builiding!

I went in for touch up paint and to find out if I needed a new clicker but it was just a dead battery. No charge. I have to tell you compared to the local Mazda parts counter these experiences were like going to the a holiday inn and then Checking into the Four Seasons.
In the showroom I went in to check out the 550 edition. As soon as I walked in they had two concierge ladies who made sure you were addressed right away and directed to a sales person. Other dealerships should take note, this is the right way to do it. I've worked in very elegant hotels in this area, and obviously someone was hired with this type of 5 star background to run certain customer service aspects.
My friend who bought an E class merc from them says she is blown away on how far they go. No charge car wash while you wait for service, food (nice buffet) and great loaner cars. But this is a dealership in an "affluent" area of the country (Metro NYC) where wealthy & demmanding people take ZERO bull ****************. They have no qualms about reaming out a salesman in front of a room full of people. And they dont' like to be kept waiting for no reason. The management are not stupid and know how to make a sale and keep it happy.

oh and I saw a guy drive off in a sliver Maserati, the engine note on that car is schweeet! That'll be my next car :)

I didn't realize how many of you guys experience inconveniences as well as annoyances due to some incompetent and arrogant Porsche dealers. I have nothing but praises for my dealer. It's Ira Porsche/Audi here in Danvers. Mass. I live only 3 miles from them, and this was a major reason to go to them in the first place. I bought all of my new Boxster, Audi A4, Lexus from them which I currently own and drive. Their service is prompt, impeccable, and courteous. I had brought in my Boxster for a couple of minor problems ( one cosmetic issue, and the other, CD player skipping ) both times they listened to me carefully and loaned me with another Boxster and the Audi A6 for the other occation. And I think that they really take pride in doing what they do at the Ira Motor Group. The only complaint is that their Porsche service manager seem to be replaced every time I go back, and the showroom is a little too small and noisy. I believe in building a personal relationship with salespeople as well as service people so that they grow acustomed with you as well. Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience with you.

Sorry to hear about the service some of you have. I would like to share two good stories about my experience with dealerships:

I bought my car at Jim Ellis in Atlanta. Every stereotype I hold for dealerships, they did not meet. I am 22 years old, so based on my experience in buying and servicing BMW's, I expected a fair amount of age discrimination when buying my first Porsche. Not the case at all. My dealer treated me the same way you'd expect to be treated if you were buying a $440k CGT. Secondly, I expected a snobby high-pressure environment. My dealer let me take the car out alone a few times before I bought it. He was also down-to-earth and knowledgable of his product. He has owned Porsches for the last 20 years, and understood the culture as a result.

I have my car serviced at Euroclassics Porsche in the Richmond, VA area. My service advisor treats me like gold, and has gone out of his way to help me get something covered by warranty, even when it was questionable as to whether the warranty covered it. I had a problem with a repair they had done (minor issue, though), and he immediately made an appointment for the next morning to have it taken care of.

If I could ask for anything, I would say I wish the dealerships had more loaner cars sitting around. I don't care what it is -- a fleet of 10 Kia's would be fine with me. I just don't like having to bring work to the dealership or have someone drive me too and from. When my parents drop off their $25k cars for service (Toyota Camry and F150), they certainly get a loaner every time. Why, then, can't I?

the funny thing is the saleman who sell porsches couldnt afford one anyways, they have nothing to be snobby about. They must think because they work for porsche they need to be snobby. I feel sorry for the there wives or girlfriends.

How do you know a Porsche salesman can't afford a Porsche?
My friend who doesn't even work for GM got a very steep discount from
a friend who does work for GM on a brand new Saab. It was about 25%
and also Porsche's are very expensive cars and I'm sure the comission schedule
is not bad at all. Not to mention the fact that the dealership can set up discounted financing through the dealership's financing company.

The new boxster $43K is now cheaper than a 2004. So I figure a salesman can probably can get a crack at a new 987 for $32-$35. Financed over 5 years with a $5000 down payment, the salesman is looking at as low as a $450 monthly payment. I'm just guessing but I don't think that's a problem for a successful salesman. Porsche also has certified preowned Porsche's where any even better deal can be had because most of those pre-owned car's are trade-ins where the owner trading in the car is taking a ridiculus hit, often only getting 30% of Blue book. 70% is Lots of room for the salesman to get a good deal since the dealership made out so well.

I'll take a 2002 996 S for $40K at 1% financing please : )

Anyone can get finance, my point is paying for it up front like most people.

Anyone with a wage packet can get higher purchase or finance.
When finance is involved its not really theres untill its paid for.
When you buy it outright its yours right away!

Most people?
Can't speak for Europe, but here in the US I would be really surprised if most people buy car's outright with interest rates at historic lows and dealerships giving cars to anyone with a $6 an hour job.
As it is today many people driving around with ultra expensive cars aren't bothering with ownership at all prefering to go the two year lease route.
I can't see how anyone who understands markets and investment would choose to tie up $60,000 into a car that will loose 40% of its value after four years. After four years most cars here in the USA are out of warranty and banks are unwilling to lend so readily for that used car which essentially drops the value even though the condition is still excellent.
My 2000 S had only 10,000 miles but lost $25,000 worth of value. THat's four year's worth of $500 a month payments, evaporated. : (
Meanwhile you could have had the other $30,000 invested into real estate or Ebay stock! (Up 220% post internet boom).
I can't fathom why anoyone with good credit would pay up front unless they had no intention of ever selling the car.

I completely agree. Buying a car outright is a very stupid thing to do. As long as you can make more in the market than you're paying for interest (which isn't hard these days, even in a fairly conservative fund), you are losing money to buy a car outright.

when you buy a car you buy it because you dont think about selling it. Everyone will lose money on a car.
I always buy my cars upfront with cash, the car is YOURS as soon as you leave the showroom. With finance it belongs to the finance company and is never yours untill its settled. Like i say cant speak for the US, but I always pay outright.. no loan, payments ect.... rates are stupid and why waste money.

But if you plan on keeping a car for a few years and throwing it back and getting something else and keep on doing that then yer i see your point.
I just like to have thing to my name, not only is it a statment but my job pays very well so i dont really want to get involved in loans ect...
I get £110 per hour thats $220 per hour so its not really a problem. If i be stupid and jump into a ferrari my TAX will shoot up to 45% which is a no no!
I 100% see what you mean though and is a good thing if you dont plan in keeping the car or prepared to pay over so many years.
It just feels so much better driving a car thats paid for...
Its annoying when people jump into a lease car and scream i own a porsche ect..
pay for it then claim it.
However if you have finance with payments then thats ok, although its not yours yet your still making an affort to say i will settle the balance through settlement or payments. When your in a lease you borrow it for a few years... :mad:

I just hate the idea of debt, any kind of it. I need to know i can close my company tomorrow if i want and walk away. If i had higher purchase ect... then any company debt will eat that up.
do you know what i mean...

yellowjacket if everyone thought like you nobody would buy a new car and you wouldnt get the chance to buy...
I dont mean buy a NEW car i just mean even if its second hand paying for it up front in my life is much better!

IMO, buying a brand new car on credit as a lease is a huge waste of money. I stopped doing it years ago. Never pay interest to anyone for something that depreciates! This isn't a difficult thing to figure out, but all too often the "gimmies" take over and the buying becomes emotional and completely unrational.

Now buying a two to three year old car with a factory extended warranty on it where some other person has paid most of the initial depreciation on the car is the smart way to go. I did that with my LS400 (a 95 bought in 99 from a dealer as a certified pre-owned) and it's paid off in spades. Car was 60% of sale price in 95, and I had nearly $9,000 worth of free maintenance and repairs done to the car over the next 36 months. I got them to replace all sorts of stuff and they never blinked an eye at my requests because the warranty backers were so good. The car is in top shape now and only 10 years old.

I'd only borrow on a used car if the interest rates were terribly low, say 2% APR and I could prove to myself that my investments were outpacing that 2% loss for the next X years of payments.

And personally, I don't borrow money on used car purchases either. If I can't afford to pay cash for it, I do not buy it. When I can afford to pay cash for it, I am very, very cautious because the day after I take possession, the bank account is dry and that makes me feel really lousy. I worked hard for that cash and it looked great in my account!

I think my bottom line is that buying or leasing a new car is a very expensive proposition, but I highly recommend it to all you young people because it creates so many 3 year old creampuffs I will then buy from you for a fraction of their "like new" value. :D

Porsche986: You talk about the "feeling" of knowing you have debt and how you don't like that. You should take some finance classes. The way the world works, the way huge corporations are successful, etc, etc, is that they borrow money at a certain rate, and use it to return a higher rate. This money that is borrowed is debt. Good debt is good. Bad debt is bad. Good debt means that you are making more off of your debt than you are paying for it. For example, if I finance my new car at 4% and invest the money I would have used to buy it, and get a 6% return, my net return is 2%. If you are capable of making money above and beyond the cost of financing the car (which currently, is not hard to do), then you are financially better off to finance it. It's called opportunity cost.

I agree that it "feels better" to pay cash for a car and not have a payment, but I make my decisions based on spreadsheets, not feelings, that is my only point.

I see your point, all i am saying is i am the same as randell, i only buy a car with money i have or i dont buy. Any figures you have no matter how good means the car is never yours untill debt is cleared no matter how good the apr is. At the moment it happens the av APR in the UK is 15%.

We are talking about buying a car with cash or finace. No investing... ect..
I see what you mean about investing yes... but again i speak from a UK point and the idea of any kind of lease, finance, loans is in my view a bad idea.
I dont claim to be an expert in investing but i do know basic facts to run a good company and thats own your items, stay clear of debt and loans. It is never a good idea of finace as if there were no finace we would all be getting superb prices for our boxster on trade.

tooooooo many people buy then cant afford payments, resulting in huge boxster stands at garages which in return means reduced price.

2 things I want to chime back in on.

First, will all due respect and condolences to the Tom Williams family for their loss of Tom Williams (founder of the Tom Williams Automobile "Gallery") to a bout with cancer. He was 78.

I drove by the Tom Williams dealerships tonight on the way home from college to check one thing out. What I was looking for was the falg pole at the end of the row connecting all of the dealers in this "subdivision". The flag, which is right against highway 459 for everyone to see, was not at half staff. I don't know what the protocol is on lowering flags for specific reasons, but I feel at least someone in one of the 7 dealerships Tom Williams put on the ground, would have thought of it.

Unfortunately, I feel this oversight is metaphoric for the way the upper management (Sonic Corporation) is so disconnected from their dealers, and how the dealers are disconnected from their customers.

Someone should have the respect to lower the flag to half staff at this auto dealer megaplex bearing Tom's name.



Second,

As for buying a new car cash, from my experience, what car you buy may make a difference.

For example; I bought my 2003 Infiniti G35 6 speed Sedan about halfway through the model year. The car stickered at $34,000 loaded, I paid $31,000 cash for it.

I drove the car 13 months, put 27,000 miles on it, traded it for the Boxster.

With the serious amount of miles I put on it in a year and it being a manual transmission on a 4 door sedan, I got $27,300 actual cash for it. I took less than a $4000 hit. This is not too unusual for 6MT owners, but unusual for the typical car market.

With that said, the G35 has held on to its resale value quite well and is one of the reasons I went back to another G35.

Another new one; In 1995, I bought the first 96 M-Edition Miata (Merlot color) which stickered for $24,000 and change. I bought it for $23,200 Sold the car 2 years later in pristine condition with 20K miles on it just under $18,000.

On the other hand, to defend the used car purchase (the one I should have kept); I bought a 1998 VW Jetta GLS TDI 5 speed, the Turbo Direct Injection diesel, with 115k miles on it for $5,000 even 4 years ago. This car was as clean as a new car, no wear showing on it any where. it was still getting 52MPG on the highway with 140K miles on it. Zero issues with this car. Only if everyone took care of thier cars like me and the previous owner of this Jetta. I put 24k miles on it, sold it a year and a half later to another TDI enthusiast for the same $5000 I initially paid for it. Jetta III TDIs and Golf TDIs and like cars in similar or less condition are still getting around the same 5 grand. With that kind of gas mileage, the savings covered the insurance and tag.

I did almost as well on my 1990 Audi 200 Turbo Quattro 5 Speed and my 1986 Commemorative Edition Audi Coupe GT. A little more maintenance cost in involved when you drive an old Audi.

These were cars that are sought after models and have a loyal or cult-like following. The rarer and more special the car, the better it will hang on to its resale, but only within the circle of like enthusiasts.

Look at the market on the Toyota Prius, the hybrid. It is extremely difficult to get this car anywhere in the country and the demand for them is high. People are still getting near what they paid for the first generation Prius, if they happen to give them up, and that is rare.

In comparison, yes my babied 04 Boxster will be a real bargain for someone looking for a used one with warranty still left on it for $34,000 as mentioned in the post above. Its will be a great deal for someone. I am the one that took the $12,000 hit in 5 months on the Boxster. This was the only new car I bought that had such a dramatic initial depreciation rate. I'm quite sure my future 997 will also.

I don't believe in strapping yourself down to a new car if you can barely make the payments and not saving money for a rainy day, just to have driveway jewelry.

I agree, its smarter to buy a car a few years old which is well taken care of in cash if possible. I never finance the full amount of the purchase price, nor do I max out the term for 5 years if I finance. I have the funds to pay for a new car in full and I have. I'm 35, my house is almost paid for (<3 years to go), I live within my means, I'm saving and investing money, but enjoying life at the same time.

Cars are my life long passion and its the only thing I spend money on. They're not investments, unless its a special vintage, but a careful purchase can be kinder to the wallet.

Dave

Yellowjacket, spreadsheets do indeed changed one's attitude and feelings about financed purchases, but I must say that paying cash for any depreciating item is what any CPA or CFP would tell you or me if asked.

Add one more thing into the mix of this conversation: Buying cars on credit and paying interest assumes three important things that simply cannot be assumed in my mind at my ripe old age of 42:

1. One's annual income level will remain the same and/or increase over time.

<i>We can work hard to keep our jobs and make more money, but alas, excellent employees lose their jobs every day! Finding another can often take months or longer. If his or her car is paid for, it's one less thing they'll have to be concerned about losing should their savings run dry.</i>

2. One's health, and the health of his or her family will remain excellent during the duration of the loan period.

<i>We can eat lots of fruits and veggies, lay off the red meat, jog three miles each morning and still contract cancer and see our life savings wiped out due to the crappy insurance we are all forced to endure in the USA. Few employers have excellent health coverage any more and the overage payments for a catastrophic illness in one's family can easily exceed $50k. Being out of car debt would go a long way toward making those medical payments.</i>

3. One's current investments will not tank and be worth far more in the years to come.

<i>The financial climate has changed. Modest gains can be had if invested wisely, but truth be told, the old addage of not counting ones' chickens until they're hatched is still true.</i>

By no means am I trying to be arguementative, but losing sleep, developing ulcers, arguing with one's spouse over spent-money issues because the spreadsheets and <i>possible</i> interest gained did not pan out, and assumes one will follow through and invest what has been borrowed to fulfill the scenario you've laid out.

The interest charged on the loan, however, is guaranteed to be charged to the payee.

Financially, one can take both sides to the debt/leverage argument and feel right. To me, if one HAS the cash, the emotion may take over.

To wit, I have no debt at all and it feels wonderful. I could borrow a ton of money and use it to leverage any number of things. Or, use it to invest in other things.

I don't do that.

To me, it feels better than what the spreadsheet might tell me.

At this stage of my life, that is more important to me that being "right."

I can certainly understand what some of you are saying regarding the decision to finance using debt or using cash out of pocket. It probably also depends partly on what stage of life you are in. Right now, I'm young and have room to make a little bit more risky financial decisions than someone who is twice my age. Furthermore, if I make a mistake, I don't have a family of four to worry about supporting. So it makes more sense for me to use my money for other purposes than paying cash for my car. That being said, I can definitely see where it makes more sense for some of you to have the piece of mind that comes with something "guaranteed" (i.e. it is guaranteed that if you pay off your car, nothing will happen to cause you to lose more money on the car than issues related to repairs, depreciation, etc.).

Sorry if I came off a bit too sure of my ways earlier!

Yellowjacket, I love the banter, and I don't get riled up about it at all! Keep it coming. That's how I seem to learn from others... lots of communication of all kinds. :)

Just save a lot of money and stay out of debt in your youth! That way, you can relax as you age and not worry about money... and you can enjoy the miracle of compounded interest, which gets really miraculous in those last years!

Randallneighbor,

Well spoken :D

Dave

NOT living with debt certainly lowers your stress level. But when you realize that $30,000 cash diversely invested in real estate, stocks, bonds will be exponentionally greater thirty years from now you have to know that the elusive "debt free good feeling" is a luxury in itself! You are leaving allot of retirement money on the table by putting the cash in another man's pocket and driving home with a smile. One very expensive smile really.
The number one thing financial advisors preach is the benefits of time. every year that you tie up cash in non-appreciating investments, is that much more cash you have to kick in to get the same return in thirty years. They also preach that even if you are in your 40's you should never think its too late to invest, people are living longer and the world is getting more expensive.

My father used to always say "a guy who makes $100,000 goes out and spends half his income on a car isn't very wealthy" He has never paid more than $5,000 for a car, EVER... even though he was more than able to buy a really nice car.

"That way, you can relax as you age and not worry about money... !"

I don't think I have ever in my life met a guy over 30 who didn't worry about money. Well there was that one single guy who ate allot of canned tuna fish.

lol i am 25 and i wanna live a little and not bother about investing.... if the bible and prophecy is correct then aint the world going to end in march 2006? lol who knows... i would much rather spend and enjoy today or die tomorrow rich.

Perfectlap, any investment that has a potential yeild to outpace an interest charge on a car loan will also have a risk factor and the "savvy" investor could lose much of that cash!

By the way, I paid $35k cash for one of my cars, and I am the first person over 30 you now know that does not worry about money. I don't make a lot, and neither does my wife, but we have no debt and that's why we don't worry about money. And just to set the record straight, I absolutely hate tuna fish! Our debt-free lifestyle allows us to eat and fine restaurants, fly to Australia and dive the Great Barrier Reef, yada yada yada. I'm not bragging, just trying to tell you that not paying all that interest really piles up the savings account for the one who saves versus spends, even when you have a modest annual income. I do spend though... I'm on this forum as a Porsche owner :D

Every single one of my friends who finance their cars, and finance new ones too frequently and make rotten choices in cars too <b>never have an extra dime to save and invest</b> ask me how on earth they can become financially secure like my wife and me.

...they hate my answer, which you can easily guess! Get out of debt and stay that way forever.

If you are one of those very rare people in this world who is an excellent saver of money AND a prudent and wise investor, you go right ahead and beat the interest on a car loan with investments versus paying cash. I admire you more than you will ever know.

I must admit publically and humbly on this forum that I am not this kind of person and do not know of any, although they must be out there somewhere! As I stated before, most every person I know lives beyond their means and one sizeable hiccup in their finances (blown engine, AC unit dies at the house, a root canal and crown, etc) and they're screaming "bankrupcy, foreclosure or reposession!" Do they find a way out? Sure! Just take out a loan or charge it on a credit card. The hole just got deeper.

Sounds like your situation is different from your posts... could you pay off your loans with your investments if necessary today? Hope so.

I feel like I'm wearing out my welcome on this topic and seriously hijacked this thread so I won't prattle on any longer. I'm just really sad for my friends because they have credit-spent themselves into a life of slavery to banks and will have little to nothing in retirement, and some have already found themselves in bankruptcy court :(

It's a Dealer problem in my opinion.
 

I live just south of you in Tuscaloosa AL. I never once considered taking my car to Tom Williams ever, I go to Jack Ingram Motors for anything that requires dealer involvement. My experiences with Tom Williams started with my BMW afterwhich I vowed never to torture my car with them again. The guys in Montgomery seem to be very professional and what you'd expect from a Porsche dealer. Tom williams owns to many dealerships and treats the german cars as if they were just another car "off" their lot. Please don't judge anything about Porsche from your experience with them.

Christeon,

I'm happy to hear about Jack Ingram Porsche. I did make a visit down to Montgomery last Friday to check them out.

I spoke to Sonya Wilson, an extremely professional saleswoman whom has been with this dealer for 18 years.

I was able to drive the new 997S that day.

A week later, I received a thank you letter for visiting from Sonya, and another one from the General Manager. I never got a thank you-anything from Tom Williams Porsche even after I bought my new Boxster.

Jack Ingram in Montgomery, AL and Jim Ellis in Atlanta are very professional dealerships. Its just unfortunate that J. Ingram Porsche is 90 miles south and J.Ellis is 160 miles east which is somewhat far for me to have the vehicle serviced from time to time.

Maybe in another 2 years I will consider buying another Porsche, but for now its time to save, payoff the house and make good investments.

Dave

I'm happy to see that there are Porsche dealerships that give a flip, just wish they were closer.